From: Jim Ley on
On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:53:00 +0000, hummingbird
<RHBIYDTNPPAX(a)spammotel.com> wrote:
>One example I gave earlier is that when I buy a ticket, it should
>entitle me to the full seat space I have bought. Currently it doesn't.

That's because you've not bought a SEAT, you've bought carriage from A
to B, it doesn't even need to be by plane.

>Another is that the methods created by airlines of marketing tickets
>result in much overbooking. Baggage is mishandled causing it much
>damage over time. All these things are unacceptable.

So vote with your money, and don't buy the tickets!

>When passengers have no alternative but to buy a ticket on a flight
>with inadequate seat space,

Of course you have an alternative, don't travel, or pay the market
rate for the service you require.

> there are still very
>many travellers who wish to travel in respectable conditions.

Yep, it's called business class.

>See above. I disagree with your unfounded assertion.
>I already mentioned that (afaik) Eva offer such an option when booking
>flights and I'm told "the seats get sold quite quickly".

And so do BA and many other airlines, but you couldn't find them when
you booked...

>They could just as easily sell all tickets on a no-show/no refund
>basis. That would not involve raising ticket prices or overbooking.

Of course it would, because people wouldn't fly them! the people who
want flexible tickets would continue flying airlines that accept
flexible tickets - as they're more expensive than non-flexible ones
that would be bvery bad for the airline.

>The airlines *choose* how they sell their tickets and the current
>methods cause severe inconvenience to many travellers.

No, a minority, a tiny minority in fact, I've been inconvenienced once
in the last few years with a flight a week, that was due to the BA
strike, and all the inconvenience was an extra long break in London -
and even that was my choice, I could've flown to arrive on close to
original time.

>Not at all. That's another distortion of my views.
>It doesn't make sense to knock-on a flight problem to other flights,
>which simply increases the number of people who are inconvenienced.

Of course it does, it gets the people who need to get home as quickly
as possible onto a suitable flight, and gives the opportunity for
those people who are more flexible the chance to get some compensation
- what exactly do you suggest as an alternative?

>Betamax got killed off by VHS some years ago, not because the latter
>was better but because of corporate muscle.

I think you'll find it was consumer choice...

>>Why didn't you know? You chose to buy your tickets yourself rather
>>than using a travel agent. You are responsible for finding those
>>things out.
>
>Not easily possible when the booking agent doesn't make the
>information available.

So stop using Expedia - if it doesn't make the information available!

BA's website would've price-matched I believe, so you'd not have been
out of pocket and the information was there.

Jim.
From: hummingbird on
On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:13:58 GMT 'Jim Ley'
posted this onto rec.travel.air:

>On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:53:00 +0000, hummingbird
><RHBIYDTNPPAX(a)spammotel.com> wrote:
>>One example I gave earlier is that when I buy a ticket, it should
>>entitle me to the full seat space I have bought. Currently it doesn't.
>
>That's because you've not bought a SEAT, you've bought carriage from A
>to B, it doesn't even need to be by plane.

And do you believe this situation is acceptable? or are you coming
round to my view that the rules governing air travel are inadequate
and leave passengers with little recourse?


>>Another is that the methods created by airlines of marketing tickets
>>result in much overbooking. Baggage is mishandled causing it much
>>damage over time. All these things are unacceptable.
>
>So vote with your money, and don't buy the tickets!

A very daft comment. Doubtless if you were told that air surrounding
you was polluted, you would choose not to breath. There are things in
life which we cannot easily stop doing w/o major disruption to our
lives. Buying food comes to mind. But it doesn't mean that because we
still do them that we agree 100% with the conditions imposed.


>>When passengers have no alternative but to buy a ticket on a flight
>>with inadequate seat space,
>
>Of course you have an alternative, don't travel, or pay the market
>rate for the service you require.

There is no "market rate for the service you require" as I've
described in this thread. Even buying business/first class tickets
at massively higher prices will not guarantee service. I may still be
seated near a screaming shifty kid or loudmouth idiot.


>> there are still very
>>many travellers who wish to travel in respectable conditions.
>
>Yep, it's called business class.

Rubbish.


>>See above. I disagree with your unfounded assertion.
>>I already mentioned that (afaik) Eva offer such an option when booking
>>flights and I'm told "the seats get sold quite quickly".
>
>And so do BA and many other airlines, but you couldn't find them when
>you booked...

As previously said, those seats don't provide adequate seat width.

What's your next brilliant idea Mr Smarty?


>>They could just as easily sell all tickets on a no-show/no refund
>>basis. That would not involve raising ticket prices or overbooking.
>
>Of course it would, because people wouldn't fly them! the people who
>want flexible tickets would continue flying airlines that accept
>flexible tickets - as they're more expensive than non-flexible ones
>that would be bvery bad for the airline.

Rubbish thought process yet again.
From: Nisse PowerMan on
Tchiowa wrote:
>
> On Mar 1, 5:47 pm, hummingbird <RHBIYDTNP...(a)spammotel.com> wrote:
> > On 27 Feb 2007 21:04:37 -0800 'Tchiowa'
> > posted this onto rec.travel.air:
>
> > >There is a difference between being a defeatist and complaining
> > >because the world doesn't work the way you want it to. The world was
> > >not designed to make everything happen exactly the way you want it to.
> > >Understanding that is part of "growing up".
> >
> > Lol. An American joker...
> >
> > You are being defeatist because you are essentially arguing in support
> > of the current airline model
>
> No, I'm arguing in favor of the free market because it has been shown
> to be the best way to solve problems like this.

Free market is totally unable to cope with these problems, just check
the so-called low price carriers, crappy service and still people accept
whatever.

It was not until the EU put down the foot and regulated against bandit
carriers that people could get their right against aircarriers.

Now it is regulated how much it cost to overbook and to delay and that
is good and in favor to the people travelling.

But it would not have been addressed by criminal companies at all.

/Nisse


<snip snap>


--
Remove the obvious part before replying by mail please!
From: Mike Hunt on
hummingbird wrote:

> On 1 Mar 2007 17:49:49 -0800 'Tchiowa'
> posted this onto rec.travel.air:

>
>>How about it they raise prices 10% without any
>>additional service to cover the cost of empty seats from "no shows"?
>>That is why the airlines overbook. They know that typically a certain
>>percentage of people with reservations won't show. So they overbook in
>>order to fill the seats. Otherwise they lose and will have to pass the
>>cost to the customer in higher prices or penalties for cancellations.
>>Which would you prefer?
>
>
> You are completely missing the point.
> The current methods of selling airline tickets is chosen by the
> airlines to suit themselves.
>
> They could just as easily sell all tickets on a no-show/no refund
> basis. That would not involve raising ticket prices or overbooking.
>
> The airlines *choose* how they sell their tickets and the current
> methods cause severe inconvenience to many travellers.

Airlines have tried the "no show no refund" method.
You must have missed it. There were too many complaints from people that
didn't like their tickets becoming worthless.

>>Why didn't you know? You chose to buy your tickets yourself rather
>>than using a travel agent. You are responsible for finding those
>>things out.
>
>
> Not easily possible when the booking agent doesn't make the
> information available.

Who chose the booking agent?
If you don't know about such things as larger seats and have a desire to
book them, then contact the people that can sell you them.
From: Mike Hunt on
Nisse PowerMan wrote:

> Free market is totally unable to cope with these problems, just check
> the so-called low price carriers, crappy service and still people accept
> whatever.
>
> It was not until the EU put down the foot and regulated against bandit
> carriers that people could get their right against aircarriers.
>
> Now it is regulated how much it cost to overbook and to delay and that
> is good and in favor to the people travelling.
>
> But it would not have been addressed by criminal companies at all.
>

Who ends up paying for this stuff? That is the whole point of choosing
discount carriers, you give up some perks to save money. Does it make
any sense for carriers to pay customers when their are weather delays?
This is what is happening in Europe now. Sure, it might be better in the
short term for customers, but then if it puts low cost carriers out of
business, then who pays?