From: Tchiowa on

The Reid wrote:
> Following up to Hatunen
> >>So? What % of the annual budget of the average person goes to travel?
> >>And Europeans do travel abroad more than Americans (just take a look at
> >>how many Americans have a passport).
> >
> >Europeans don't have as far to go to get abroad.
> that of course doesn't make it untrue.

But it makes the original statement irrelevant.

> >A great many of
> >the foreign destinations for Americans don't require a passport
> >(so far, anyway).
> what would be your guess on % of Americans who travel abroad and
> who travel abroad beyond Mexico and Canada (a guess, I'm not
> interested in a cites war). Are there a lot of countries US
> doesn't need passports?

Your question is nonsensical. The fact that Europe is Balkanized means
that a trip in Europe that is "abroad" and requires a passport would be
a domestic trip in the US.

Instead try asking how many people in the US travel away from home and
how far the typical trip is and compare with Europe. You'll find that
Americans travel more.

A trip from Amsterdam to Brussels means, what, a 2 hour train ride? And
you can call it "travelling abroad" while a trip from California to New
York by train takes several days and is equivalent to and Ireland to
Greece trip.

Apples and Oranges.

Americans don't need a passport to travel to almost *any* country in
North America.

From: Tchiowa on

Dave Frightens Me wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2006 18:19:42 -0700, "Tchiowa" <tchiowa2(a)> wrote:


> >> Some 86% were handed over in Afghanistan and Pakistan after a
> >> widespread campaign in which big financial bounties were offered in
> >> exchange for anyone suspected of links to al-Qaeda and the Taleban.
> >
> >Good idea.
> Offering bounties for suspects is a good idea???

And *extremely* good idea. It's used by law enforcement all over the
world. "Reward for information leading to.........."

And it works.


> >???? Exactly the same picture. People with links to Al Qaeda and the
> >Taliban absolutely are covered by my statement above regarding
> >terrorists and murderers.
> Utter rubbish. These people are no more likely to have links with Al
> Qaeda and the Taliban than anyone else. They were just rounded up so
> the USA could have some spoils.

And your proof of that?

> They are being deprived due process only because many of them would be
> found to have done nothing.

And your proof of *that*???

From: Tchiowa on

Jordi wrote:
> Tchiowa wrote:
> > Jordi wrote:
> >
> > Wrong. It's the crux of what we're talking about. Allowing the market
> > to work makes things better over time. Distorting the market like they
> > do in Europe will eventually have a cost. It already has.
> That's a gross oversimplification. Every economy (even the US) is a mix
> of free market and government intervention, is the US also distorting
> the market?

Do you understand the difference between "intervention" and "control"?
The difference between setting boundaries that can't be crossed and
defining the detail of individual transactions?

> > > So? What % of the annual budget of the average person goes to travel?
> > > And Europeans do travel abroad more than Americans (just take a look at
> > > how many Americans have a passport).
> >
> > I'm somewhat surprised that you fell into that somewhat simplistic
> > trap. The primary reason that more Europeans have passports that
> > Americans is the Balkanization of Europe. In parts of Europe you need a
> > passport in order to travel more than about an hour in any direct.
> > Americans can travel the length and breadth of North America without a
> > passport (inicluding Canada and Mexico). The fact that Europe fought
> > itself into tiny little legal entities that required people to have
> > passports to cross the street in some cases isn't something the Euros
> > should be bragging about.
> Schengen has pretty much changed that for a great deal of Europeans.

Yup. In part. But they still have their passports. But my statement
still stands. Europeans travel "abroad" more than Americans because
damn near everything in Europe is "abroad" for Europeans? Brussels to
Amsterdam is a foreign trip. New York to LA isn't. Which is the greater

> As per the rest, it's history, we have managed to keep many cultures
> and identities in a relatively small space, and not necessarily as a
> tourist show.

And the US has every bit as varied a culture as Europe. The difference
is that there are international boundaries in Europe but not in the US.
Which explains the "passport" and "travel abroad" issues. Which means
the original statement was nonsensical.

> > > So is Japan, and nobody suggests Japanese don't have money to spend
> > > while on holiday.
> >
> > As compared to Americans? I'm suggesting it.
> If everything you care about is pure income, there you have it. Keep it
> while you can.

I didn't say that. But we were discussing spending money on vacation.
You seem to be surrendering.

> > > > > Also, the EU has a more even distribution of income than the US.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. Evenly low.
> > >
> > > There are more average Europeans than average Americans, that means
> > > someone is doing things well.
> >
> > What???????????
> >
> > The average European is substantially poorer than the average American.
> > The average European would be considered lower (or lower-middle) class
> > financially in America. That is "doing something well"???
> You are talking two different things. An European transplanted into
> America with his European salary would be lower or lower-middle class,
> but things down here are different.
> The average European family has a home, car, computer, mobile phone,
> cable-TV and whatever else the American family has, and has more time
> to enjoy it together.

The average American has slightly more than one home (a high percentage
of Americans have 2 homes including a vacation house or condo), more
than 2 cars, 2-3 computers, who knows how many mobile phones, and more
and better TVs.

And we have just about as much time to enjoy it together.

> > > > proves that.
> > >
> > > You're not following the discussion. When told that Europeans enjoy
> > > more vacation than Americans you replied what's the use if they don't
> > > have money to spend on them.
> >
> > And if they have less money to spend on average then a higher
> > percentage will have no money to spend. Simple.
> If you are trying to say a significant number of Europeans don't have
> money enough to go on vacation you're wrong.

A higher percentage of Europeans than Americans can't afford vacation.

A higher percentage of Europeans than Americans who *can* afford
vacation can't afford a real good vacation because of "limited funds".

The average American does more vacation travel, goes more places, has
more money to spend, does more things while on vacation than the
average European.

> > > Grasping at straws again, you're jumping from one subject to the other.
> >
> > No, same subject. The vacation policy is hurting the workers.
> So you say.

Me and the official unemployment statistics.

> > > You first said giving more holiday is a great way to motivate somehow
> > > implying that European business don't reward efforts.
> >
> > No, you said that. I said that "rewards" are a great way. That includes
> > salary *and* vacation.
> Then why follow that Euro businesses are not rewarding efforts because
> they don't give more holiday? (btw: some do).

And less salary.

> > > Then I replied:
> > > that's false, they get more benefits but especially more pay (the
> > > ultimate reason for which the individual works).
> >
> > ???? Euros get *less* pay.
> Again losing track. We are talking about rewarding efforts of current
> employees by increasing their pay, how can you come out with that?

Europeans get less pay than Americans on the average. If Euros get a
raise and Americans get a raise the Americans stay ahead.

> > > It's simple: excessive work causes stress but there is no way to
> > > calculate how much is excessive as it depends on every individual and
> > > work position.
> >
> > Define "excessive". That was the question.
> Excessive is easy to define the point is how much is excessive.

OK. I'm waiting for the definition and the point.

> > Note that most psychiatrists say that people are more stressed now than
> > they were a century ago. But the average person now works 50% less than
> > the average person did a century ago. So your linkage is getting lost.
> Not really, a century ago most jobs were totally manual and any worker
> complaining about excessive workload would be summarily fired and with
> no other option but starving or turning to crime.

But was he "stressed". The shrinks say "no".

> > >
From: Tchiowa on

Jordi wrote:
> mrtravel wrote:
> > The Reid wrote:
> > >
> > > what would be your guess on % of Americans who travel abroad and
> > > who travel abroad beyond Mexico and Canada (a guess, I'm not
> > > interested in a cites war). Are there a lot of countries US
> > > doesn't need passports?
> >
> > There are few left, but that will soon end as the US Government will
> > require them for re-entry. The percentage of foreign travelers is lower
> > because the US is a large country with great diversity.
> So is Australia and I recall them having one of the highest % of
> passport holders.

Excuse me? Australia is a physically large country but 90% of it is
desert or close to it. Hardly "great diversity".

From: Mxsmanic on
Dave Frightens Me writes:

> If drugs are involved, it's usually a criminal matter.

The prosecution of the crime is a criminal matter, but the seizure of
property is not.

Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.