Italian bread. was Re: MacDonalds
in [Europe]
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From: David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate on 28 Sep 2006 05:11 Giovanni Drogo <drogo(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Ian Burton wrote: > > > >>Blue pen mistake ! You were getting one "paninO" (singular). Or two (or > > >>more) "paninI" (plural). Of course "imbottito/i" (filled). > > > Biscotti have fallen into the same category. I feel ridiculously pedantic > > asking for a "biscotto." It gets the response you get, "That's one biscotti > > Now I wonder what that will be. > > In italian biscotto/i is the common name for biscuits or cookies (we > make no differences). Things you buy in a supermarket, in packets. Not > things you order in a bar or pasticceria (well, yes you might order > "biscottini" or "biscotti da te". In this case the plural "biscotti" > makes more sense, because one buys or order biscuits as a lot, not a > single one. Of course we use "biscotto" when talking of a single piece, > but I can't find of any situation where I'd ORDER that. > > While, unless I'm quite hungry, it is common to order one panino. > > > coming up." The battle, if there ever was one, over "latte" has been lost > > That's also something you should explain to me. > I never encountered the italian term while I was staying in the UK long > ago, and did not notice it during my more recent short term trips. Not > that I'd paid attention to it, since I'm intolerant to milk. This is fairly recent I think. I started noticing it in some chains in the early 90s. Now, it's almost ubiquitous in the numerous coffee chains and other outlets. If you'd stayed in London a long time ago, I'm surprised you didn't notice it, as there are have historically been quite a few italian coffee bars there. (Run by, and usually frequented by, Italians.) The first caffe latte I ever had (in a long glass IIRC) was at a place a music conductor introduced me too, close to Charing Cross Road. That was in the mid-80s. But as I say, you can order a caffe latte almost anywhere. At the largest train station in Manchester, for example, I've counted 6 separate outlets that will serve it, and I might have missed one or two! BTW, if you're milk intolerant, not necessarily a problem, a lot of the places offer soya milk as a subsitute! :) I'm not really fond of either version- while not lactose intolerant, I just don't have the taste for milky drinks. -- David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
From: Giovanni Drogo on 28 Sep 2006 05:23 On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Ian Burton wrote: > > used to make them. However, I would warn Sr. Drogo > That should be Sig. Drogo -- if you must. Or may be Lt. Drogo :-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tartar_Steppe) Actually I always found the courtesy usage of british newspapers to refer to foreign peoples, typically politicians, with a title in their own language (Monsieur Chirac, Signor Prodi etc.) rather curious. It does not match italian usage where such people are usually referred to just by surname, or more rarely either by name and surname, or by a proper title (professor, avvocato, dottore, cavaliere :-), senatore ... .... the usage of "onorevole" to refer to a member of the Chamber of Deputies is liked by some of them, but shunned by others ... the current President of the Chamber of Deputies, Bertinotti, is careful to avoid it, and address colleagues as "deputato/a SoAndSo". Another usage, always talking in third person, is to use an article with the surname : this is typical when speaking of a writer, and artist, eventually a scientist : il Manzoni, il Leopardi, la Deledda (the use of the article is sort of a must when speaking of a female writer or artist, although shunned by strict observance feminists), il Tasso, il Buonarroti (but Raffaello and Michelangelo - because they are names not surnames). The article, with name or surname, is also used in common language to refer to colleagues or friends, but this is a typical northern usage. And anyhow, when talking of somebody using a title, italian requires the article : "il signor Rossi ha fatto", "il professor Prodi ha detto", "il cavalier Berlusconi e' stato frainteso" :-) Maybe that's the reason of my uneasiness when I read "Signor Prodi said" (the fact I'd expect an article and it does not look/sound right to me). The abbreviation (Sig. Dr. or Dott. Prof. etc.) is used only in postal addresses, or in the opening address of a letter (Caro Sig. Rossi = dear Mr. Rossi), not when talking in third person. An e-mail does not require all the formality of a letter. Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the "international" usage of opening a letter with "Dear Name Surname". This seems quite common in my environment (astrophysics) when e.g. an helpdesk of a mission replies to a first-time request. In general if I write to an unknown colleague (not collectively in which case "Dear colleague" will do) the first time I use "Dear Dr. XYZ", and expect him/her to reply with "Dear Giovanni" (and of course also the reciprocal is true). But I feel uneasy if some junior scientist at an helpdesk writes to me as "Dear Giovanni Drogo". Such form is totally unused in italian. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
From: James Silverton on 28 Sep 2006 08:15 Hello, Giovanni! You wrote on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:23:42 +0200: <<<clipping>>> GD> Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the GD> "international" usage of opening a letter with "Dear Name GD> Surname". This seems quite common in my environment GD> (astrophysics) when e.g. an helpdesk of a mission replies GD> to a first-time request. GD> In general if I write to an unknown colleague (not GD> collectively in which case "Dear colleague" will do) the GD> first time I use "Dear Dr. XYZ", and expect him/her to GD> reply with "Dear Giovanni" (and of course also the GD> reciprocal is true). But I feel uneasy if some junior GD> scientist at an helpdesk writes to me as "Dear Giovanni GD> Drogo". Such form is totally unused in italian. You don't have to be Italian to dislike this! At best, it seems clumsy in English but I think there are two causes: computer generated form letters and a desire to avoid addressing males as females and vice versa. For example until recently, you could be fairly certain that someone called Sean was male but not now and there have always been ambiguous first names like Hilary or Carol. James Silverton Potomac, Maryland E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not
From: George O. Bizzigotti on 28 Sep 2006 08:29 On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:56:52 +0200, Giovanni Drogo <drogo(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote: >On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Ian Burton wrote: >> >>Blue pen mistake ! You were getting one "paninO" (singular). Or two (or >> >>more) "paninI" (plural). Of course "imbottito/i" (filled). >> Biscotti have fallen into the same category. I feel ridiculously pedantic >> asking for a "biscotto." It gets the response you get, "That's one biscotti >Now I wonder what that will be. In US usage, "biscotti" almost always refers to a crunchy, sliced almond cookie, similar to the cantucinni I have had in Firenze with vin santo. The difference is that the US version is much larger (of course!), perhaps 15-20 cm long, and 3 cm in height and width. I've seen many partially covered in chocolate. The better ones* make a nice afternoon snack, but unless one has the metabolism of a hummingbird, one of them is plenty. *The poorer examples, made by bakers ignorant of the distinction between "crispy and chewy" and "hard and rubbery," can be best employed as door stops. Regards, George ********************************************************************** Dr. George O. Bizzigotti Telephone: (703) 610-2115 Mitretek Systems, Inc. Fax: (703) 610-1558 3150 Fairview Park Drive South E-Mail: gbizzigo(a)mitretek.org Falls Church, Virginia, 22042-4519 ********************************************************************** -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
From: Giovanni Drogo on 28 Sep 2006 08:42
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, it was written: > GD> Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the > GD> "international" usage of opening a letter with "Dear Name > GD> Surname". > You don't have to be Italian to dislike this! At best, it seems clumsy in > English but I think there are two causes: computer generated form letters and I won't be resented, offended or puzzled from what appears obviously a computer generated form letter (it was not the case I was referring to of a personal reply from a junior scientist in some satellite helpdesk). May be I'll laugh. Once my institute received some advertising addressed (i'll supply the translated equivalent of the original italian) to "Kind family Hysics Institute of Cosmic P" :-) > a desire to avoid addressing males as females and vice versa. Luckily in italian that can be "neutralized" using an abbreviation like "Sig. Surname" (which can stand for signore or signora or signorina ... actually it is now out of date to distinguish the latter two ... like "Ms" being generic for 'Mrs' or 'Miss'). Writing to an unknown colleague I could use a neutral "Dr", but once I had to reply to some journal editor with a german name which was not obvious to me whether it was male or female, I spent some 20 minutes looking on the web to sort it out, then used an (irregular) "Dear M. Surname" ! :-) > until recently, you could be fairly certain that someone called Sean was male > but not now and there have always been ambiguous first names like Hilary or > Carol. Uh ? I heard a name like Leslie could be ambiguous, but I thought the two you quote were only female names. A source of "international" confusion could be a name like Andrea (feminine in German but masculine in Italian). -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so. |