Italian bread. was Re: MacDonalds
in [Europe]
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From: B Vaughan on 28 Sep 2006 08:47 On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:23:42 +0200, Giovanni Drogo <drogo(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote: >Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the "international" usage >of opening a letter with "Dear Name Surname". This seems quite common in >my environment (astrophysics) when e.g. an helpdesk of a mission replies >to a first-time request. Is it the "Dear" or the first name that gives you pause? Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I wouldn't address someone unknown in a formal letter with a first name. I would be rather surprised if you see this very often in letters composed by. Perhaps it's common in letters that have been composed by a computer, where the database contains the name as it was entered by its owner and it's impossible to determine whether first names or surnames are being furnished. The Italian salutation "Egregio Signore" used to startle me, mainly because "egregious" in English isn't very complimentary. Another thing that surprised me is the custom of giving one's name as "surname name" rather than "name surname". It seemed rather Chinese to me. -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
From: B Vaughan on 28 Sep 2006 08:47 On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:11:31 -0500, erilar <drache(a)chibardun.net.invalid> wrote: >You put water and tea bags in a glass jar and set it in the sun for >several hours. You can add other things to the jar as well, or use >flavored tea. Any transparent jar will work(I've used a large former >peanut butter jar) but some people have to have special ones. I've never seen the point of "sun tea". It takes hours to make the tea and the result is mediocre. There's no way to get decent tea without boiling water. -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
From: Giovanni Drogo on 28 Sep 2006 09:27 On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, B Vaughan wrote: > They are the biscotti that are literally "twice cooked", and that you I was aware of the etimology, but in current language nowadays the difference is not made any more. > dip in sweet wine after a meal. A lot of the things called biscotti or > biscottini in Italy are baked only one, but the real biscotti are > baked once in a low loaf form, then sliced and baked again. That's more or less the way we do cantuccini (the "loaf" is more properly a flat stick shape), except that they are not FULLY baked the first time, they are sliced and put back in the oven so that the "sectioned" part gets crusty too. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
From: James Silverton on 28 Sep 2006 09:53 Hello, Giovanni! You wrote on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:42:01 +0200: GD>>> Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the GD>>> "international" usage of opening a letter with "Dear Name GD>>> Surname". ??>> You don't have to be Italian to dislike this! At best, it ??>> seems clumsy in English but I think there are two causes: ??>> computer generated form letters and ??>> until recently, you could be fairly certain that someone ??>> called Sean was male but not now and there have always ??>> been ambiguous first names like Hilary or Carol. GD> Uh ? I heard a name like Leslie could be ambiguous, but I GD> thought the two you quote were only female names. A source GD> of "international" confusion could be a name like Andrea GD> (feminine in German but masculine in Italian). I know the currently most famous Hilary is the Senator but I have known Hilarys of both sexes and I had a well-known male colleague in my scientific field called Carol. Perhaps, English speakers also should consider abbreviating Mr, Mrs and Ms to M :-) In passing, tho I am American, I rather like the British custom of not regarding Mr, Dr etc as abbreviations and thus omitting the period. James Silverton Potomac, Maryland E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not
From: Giovanni Drogo on 28 Sep 2006 09:59
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, B Vaughan wrote: > >Another usage which make me feel uneasy, is the "international" usage > >of opening a letter with "Dear Name Surname". > Is it the "Dear" or the first name that gives you pause? No problem with the "Dear", it's the combination. I'd expect something like "Dear Name" or "Dear Mr. Surname" or "Dear Dr. Surname". > Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I wouldn't address someone unknown in a > formal letter with a first name. I'm old-fashioned too, but I find normal to receive a "Dear Name" letter from a relative, a friend, or a colleague. In the latter case even a colleague I do not know (more correctly, if I write to him or he writes to me with "Dear Dr Surname" I feel normal that the reply switches to "Dear Name"). You know that in italian there are two pronominal forms for "you", the familiar "tu" and the courtesy "lei" (which in the southern or antiquate usage may also be "voi"), so, combining this with Names or Surnames and titles gives a number of variants and nuances ... - "Signor Drogo, lei ..." (standard courtesy form, most common) - "Signor Giovanni, lei ..." (courtesy form with well known acquaintances older in age, rather common) - "Signor Drogo, tu ..." (not in common use, will sound "over the lines" and somewhat derisory or offensive ... but I heard in some areas like Abruzzi is a common form used by old people) - "Signor Giovanni, tu ..." (in most cases sounds archaic, the sort of things one expects to find in a fiction taking place in middle ages ... but for instance our former "portiere" (house warden), aged more than 70, calls me "Doctor Giovanni", switching between tu (usual) and (lei). I reply with "Signor Umberto" and lei.) - "Drogo, lei .." Used between colleagues who want to keep distances, or superior to inferior, e.g. modern military usage. - "Drogo, tu ..." At my times it was used between schoolmates. Can be used sometimes between colleagues (we usually prefer the first name, but in case of many colleagues with the same name, the older one on the place is called by name and the other by surname). Also used superior to inferior in older military usage. - "Giovanni, lei ..." (courtesy form similar to the second above, slightly less common, maybe used in the reverse, old well known acquaintance to younger) - "Giovanni, tu ..." (standard familiar form, most common) > The Italian salutation "Egregio Signore" used to startle me, mainly > because "egregious" in English isn't very complimentary. Nowadays it is not so used, maybe in a very formal context, otherwise replaced by "Gentile signore" (kind, which has the advantage that one can write "Gentile signore/a") or even "Caro" (dear). For instance if I'd write a letter to a newspaper, say Corriere della Sera, I'd probably start "Egregio Dottor Romano", but I'm pretty sure if they publish it, the editor will replace it with "Caro Romano" and use "Caro Drogo" in the answer ... which is quite strange, since Sergio Romano is a former ambassador (which in Italy means a career diplomatic). > Another thing that surprised me is the custom of giving one's name as > "surname name" rather than "name surname". It seemed rather Chinese to > me. Or Hungarian. The "surname name" is a military or bureaucratic usage. I suppose you know the saying "siamo uomini, o caporali ?". Since we are men and not corporals, we refuse to use such form, and use "name surname". -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so. |