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From: Ariadne on 13 Jun 2010 15:04
On 13 June, 19:11, Saracene <john....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 June, 18:57, Ariadne <ariadne....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 13 June, 14:54, Saracene <john....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Not enough to give them a right to Palestine.
>
> > There wasn't a "Palestine".  There was a
> > Mandate over land intended as the Jewish
> > national home.
>
> > Arabs got their own countries via other Mandates.
> > Who would want to give them the Jews' land?
>
> These are legal quibbles.

Of course. What do you expect when one people
legally own the land?

> The reality is what those who live in the
> region believe and feel. Any anyway, whatever territorial rights you
> argue, surely they are not based on scientific research into Jewish
> DNA, which was what my comment was replying to.

From: Saracene on 13 Jun 2010 15:15
On 13 June, 20:04, Ariadne <ariadne....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 June, 19:11, Saracene <john....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 13 June, 18:57, Ariadne <ariadne....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 13 June, 14:54, Saracene <john....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Not enough to give them a right to Palestine.
>
> > > There wasn't a "Palestine".  There was a
> > > Mandate over land intended as the Jewish
> > > national home.
>
> > > Arabs got their own countries via other Mandates.
> > > Who would want to give them the Jews' land?
>
> > These are legal quibbles.
>
> Of course.  What do you expect when one people
> legally own the land?
>
> > The reality is what those who live in the
> > region believe and feel. Any anyway, whatever territorial rights you
> > argue, surely they are not based on scientific research into Jewish
> > DNA, which was what my comment was replying to.

quib·ble (kwbl)
intr.v. quib·bled, quib·bling, quib·bles
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial
distinctions and objections.
2. To find fault or criticize for petty reasons; cavil.
n.
From: John Rennie on 13 Jun 2010 15:22
Bert Hyman wrote:
> In news:9fednRwtl9Glu4jRnZ2dnUVZ8sAAAAAA(a)giganews.com John Rennie
> <john-rennie(a)talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>
>>> Why does it matter that Israel is a European state, even if you
>>> qualify that with "to all intents and purposes?"
>>>
>>> Should the region be quarantined to exclude the effects of western
>>> civilization?
>> Look at what's happened in the last 60 years. It hasn't
>> benefited from what you obviously consider are the benefits
>> of western civilisation.
>
> The non-Western societies of the region are still suffering the
> xenophobia and tribal hatreds from the past.
>
> They and their brothers around the world have been hacking strangers and
> one another to death for centuries and continue to do so today.
>
> Whose fault is that?
>

The cheap answer is 'Theirs'. But we have done much
to stimulate that hatred. Let's for once leave Israel
out of it and consider the effect of the diesel engine
and its superiority to the coal fired engines of
HM Navy and the American Navy. This revolution
occurred before the first world war and Winston
Churchill knew that in order to 'protect' our vital
oil supplies we had to control that area where
they were in abundance. Of course we had grossly
interfered with the Middle East centuries before
but that was nothing to the effect of the greedy
desire for oil.

Anyway when one considers the actions of Arizona
and the anti-illegals aren't one or two of the
western societies "suffering the xenophobia and
tribal hatreds from the past"? We ain't superior
to anybody.
From: Tis Odonovan, Himself on 13 Jun 2010 15:32
On Jun 13, 1:55 pm, Saracene <john....(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 June, 13:36, "ODONOVAN, Himself" <lapuant...(a)aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Which reminds me of a classic Jewish joke (when told orally, the way I
> > first heard it, this features a Yiddish accent for the elderly woman):
>
> > A man is sitting next to an old lady on an airplane. They begin to
> > chat, and after the preliminaries she cuts to the chase and asks him,
> > “You Jewish?”
>
> > “No ma’am, I’m not.”
>
> > “Don’t be shy,” she said “You can tell me.”
>
> > “No, I’m just not Jewish” he responds.
>
> > “You shouldn’t be ashamed of being Jewish,” she says, as she leans
> > closer.
>
> > “I’m not,” he answers. “If I were Jewish I’d be proud. But I’m just
> > not Jewish.”
>
> > “Maybe your mother, your father, a grandparent, somebody was Jewish?”
>
> > “No,” he said, “nobody.”
>
> > The lady gets testier and says, “You know, you’re not fooling me. I’m
> > going to keep asking you until you come clean.”
>
> > The man decides to give in, just to shut her up. “Okay, if it makes
> > you happy, okay, I’ll say it: yes I’m Jewish.”
>
> > “Funny, you don’t look it.”
>
> What about you?Any Jewish relatives?  Would you say you would be proud
> of being Jewish if you are not?
> What Is the matter with gentile Americans? Why on earth are so many so
> keen on Israel? What Is the agenda? Simple imperialism or just
> stupidity?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> What about you?Any Jewish relatives?

None at all. Three of my grandparents immigrated to Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania for economic opportunities from Ireland in the late 1890s
qnd early 1900s. A maternal grsndfather was a German/ Dutch Quaker
tracing a continuous Quaker ancestry back to a land grant from William
Penn in Pennsylvania.

> Would you say you would be proud
> of being Jewish if you are not?

I wouldn't find it anything to be ashamed of. I crossed paths with
many Jewish colleagues during my business career. As a group I admired
their work ethic, intellect and achievements including but not
exclusive of their disproportionate economic successes. I believe they
are victims targeted because of their own successes
From: Bill Bonde on 13 Jun 2010 15:36
John Rennie wrote:
> Bert Hyman wrote:
>> In news:9fednRwtl9Glu4jRnZ2dnUVZ8sAAAAAA(a)giganews.com John Rennie
>> <john-rennie(a)talktalk.net> wrote:
>>> Bert Hyman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why does it matter that Israel is a European state, even if you
>>>> qualify that with "to all intents and purposes?"
>>>> Should the region be quarantined to exclude the effects of western
>>>> civilization?
>>> Look at what's happened in the last 60 years. It hasn't
>>> benefited from what you obviously consider are the benefits
>>> of western civilisation.
>>
>> The non-Western societies of the region are still suffering the
>> xenophobia and tribal hatreds from the past.
>> They and their brothers around the world have been hacking strangers and
>> one another to death for centuries and continue to do so today.
>> Whose fault is that?
>>
>
> The cheap answer is 'Theirs'. But we have done much
> to stimulate that hatred. Let's for once leave Israel
> out of it and consider the effect of the diesel engine
> and its superiority to the coal fired engines of
> HM Navy and the American Navy. This revolution
> occurred before the first world war and Winston
> Churchill knew that in order to 'protect' our vital
> oil supplies we had to control that area where
> they were in abundance. Of course we had grossly
> interfered with the Middle East centuries before
> but that was nothing to the effect of the greedy
> desire for oil.
>
Guess what, it's BP again. The real source of the Iranian mess goes back
to their refusal to fairly pay for the oil they were extracting. The
Americans made deals that were 50/50. I think it was Occidental in Libya
that was a good example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_Petroleum
#begin quote
Occidental won exploration rights in Libya in 1965 and operated there
until all activities were suspended in 1986 after the United States
imposed economic sanctions on Libya.
#end quote

But the British in Iran thought that they owned the oil and didn't have
to pay the locals essentially at all. This included making deals and
then not following them by misreporting how much oil was exported.


> Anyway when one considers the actions of Arizona
> and the anti-illegals aren't one or two of the
> western societies "suffering the xenophobia and
> tribal hatreds from the past"? We ain't superior
> to anybody.
>
The AZ situation is just the people have decided to vote for defending
their borders. The border locations are legally defined. The problem
with the Palestinians is that they are unwilling to accept a border that
is possible.

(Actually, that's just the main relevant problem to this discussion,
there are, of course, many other problems including the endemic problem
that Arab nations seem to have, they largely don't produce anything but
oil and olives. And after all these years, it's questionable whether
they can even produce the oil without outside help. Not to make this too
Lispy but (I shouldn't say just Arab nations because the Persians also
have a problem, Iran imports gasoline because it can't refine enough of
its ample oil.))





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