From: didier Meurgues on
On 12 sep, 20:14, didier Meurgues <erdnisl...(a)voila.fr> wrote:
> On 12 sep, 16:23, Giovanni Drogo <dr...(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, didier Meurgues wrote:
> > > Giovanni Drogo a écrit :
> > > > I would be interested in knowing more about this, both for the case of
> > > > the Paris Navigo pass (maybe from Didier), than for other places (I
> > > > I add my own comments about the situation in Milan. Here the card (costs
>
> > I might also add that no "french bashing" was at all implied in my post,
> > on the contrary I was assuming things about privacy were done better
> > abroad than in Italy.
>
> > Since "The CNIL exists since 1978" while the Autorita' Garante per la
> > Protezione dei Dati Personali since 1997 only . I'd expect that RATP
> > were a priori more attentive than ATM on privacy matters.
>
> > And in fact it looks like that ...
>
> > > The travel datas are kept 48 H on the nominatiive normal Navigo pass
>
> > You say that data are kept ON THE CHIP. I won't object on that since the
> > chip card is normally in my pockets. If I'd designed the software for
> > ATM, I'd made it such that on entry in the metro it records the station
> > and hour, and on exit it reads it (without the card id) and communicates
> > to the central database "whoever entered at station X at time T exited
> > at station Y at time U". Apparently instead ATM designed the system so
> > that the fact that "card number N entered at station X at time T" is
> > transmitted to the central database at entry (perhaps also on exit, but
> > use of the card on exit is not yet compulsory). Originally it was kept
> > forever. Now, if they abide the disposition of the Privacy Authority,
> > they anonymize it after 72 hours.
>
> Well, I should have said "are kept 48H WITH the normal navigo pass".
> They say that the validation datas (so coming from the turnstiles) are
> associated during 48 H with the number of the card (so the name). It
> works in fact as you described.
>
> > > (for fraud fighting). The others deconnected datas (name, adress, bank
> > > account and type of pass (zone) AND I HAD CARD NUMBER) are kept exclusively for renewing or
> > > lost of the pass. This is common in france (Electricity contracts,
>
> > Yes, also in Italy we sign a consensus form for such data. I signed it
> > also for the paper card precursor of the Itinero pass, but the form
> > makes no reference to transit data, or to their "deconnection".
>
> > > the CNIL. The Navigo Découverte pass is anonymous concerning datas
> > > keeping. Photo and name are used for both pass for the control on the
> > > spot. On the nominative normal navigo pass the photo is scaned. For
> > > the decouverte pass they say that you give an ID photo.
>
> > OK, so I understand the new pass is "anonymous" but not "impersonal".
>
> Yes, you buy the Navigo Decouverte anonimously, but apparently later
> (like with the actual Carte Orange) you put yourself your photo and
> name on it. So you're not in the datas but the controler can check on
> the spot that it's really your card, since it cannot be used by
> different persons at different times.
>
> > Essentially one gains the anonymity losing, I suppose, the possibility
> > to obtain a new pass for free (do I understand correctly) in case of
> > loss or theft.
>
> No, unfortunately they renew it for the cost of the pass (5 €) + a
> charge of 3 €, so 8 €. But you just have to present an ID to got it
> immediately renewed in the Club Ratp commercial agencies listed
> there

As you said, in addition to the simplicity and rapidity of the renewal
in case of lost, the main interest of the normal Navigo pass is that
the validity period is the same than the one of the lost pass, so you
don't have to pay again for the remaining time.

:https://www.navigo.fr/pages/images/liste_des_agences.pdf
> PS : It's better to buy your Navigo decouverte pass in these agencies
> until january 1, since some ticket office staff don't know that they
> can already deliver it exactely like a Carte Orange at any ticket
> office. Let's wait January 1 for their definitive info I hope....
>
> Contrary to what Mixi says, it's the job of the CNIL to check that the
> "validation" datas are only kept 48 H and to bring the RATP to courts
> in case of breach of the law (as they did recently with companies and
> real estate agencies which made lists based on race, etc...).
>
> didier Meurgues
>
> I do not like this trade off (since I pay 300 euro in a
>
>
>
> > lot for an yearly pass, if I lose it on january 2nd I like the idea of
> > not having to pay 300 euro again more than I regret the breach of my
> > privacy). Anyhow in case of loss or theft, ATM wants anyhow 15 euro
> > (versus 10 for issue) for the new card (on which it loads the residual
> > duration).
>
> > Since your anonymous pass has a photo, it is not impersonal (it cannot
> > be used by different persons at different times).
>
> > Does an impersonal season card exist anywhere in major cities ? (I know
> > only of smaller places like Bologna issuing one).
>
> > In Milan there were forms of impersonal transport documents, in the
> > form of the weekly 2x6 (two rides per day), and the 10-trip carnet. They
> > were both booklets of paper tickets. The 2x6 could be used by different
> > persons, but not simultaneously (for instance I could use it on Monday
> > and my brother on Tuesday). The carnet could be used also simultaneously
> > (for instance a family of 3 stamping 3 tickets in the booklet).
>
> > Now they replaced both with magnetic tickets (DIFFERENT from the chip
> > card). The 2x6 usage remains the same, but the equivalent of the carnet
> > is a single ticket, were each of the 10 usages is recorded on the
> > magnetic strip, and at the same time stamped on the back of the ticket
> > in slightly offset locations. But since the machine won't add a stamp if
> > the previous stamping is still active (lasting for a trip of 75 min), it
> > is not possible to use it by more persons travelling together.
>
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > nos...(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
> > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
> > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
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From: didier Meurgues on

Mxsmanic a écrit :
> didier Meurgues writes:
>
> > I early choosed
> > an annual Navigo pass, simply because I consider, despite the original
> > "recommendation" of the CNIL, but contrary to Privacy international
> > "AWARD", that l'm not going to die if my travel stats are kept for
> > only.... 48H...!
>
> They'll be kept much longer than that, despite any promises to the contrary.
> The only way to prevent that is to not give the information to begin with.

Registration is mandatory in London for Oyster travelcard season
tickets and the online service includes online payment and cash
reloading, so the knowledge of email, credit card number and
consequently... name in this case, in addition the discount Oyster
cards need your name, while the explanations say that "Registered
Oyster card holders can get a statement of all journey made in the
last 8 WEEKS", so consequently TFL as well.

That's much longer... than the 48 hours data keeping for Navigo
travelcard season tickets number (so connected with name).
You still have the choice to only pay Oyster at the ticket office in
cash instead that online but it was still possible in Paris too to buy
normal monthly Carte Orange instead of Navigo between 2001 and 2007
instead of annual pass. Nevertheless, Oyster didn't get the Privacy
international award as easily as Navigo did...
PS : The next step, will be to put on the anonymous Navigo Decouverte,
the Pay as you go tickets (carnet, Paris visit, etc...) wich are not
yet available. But since the necessary pass now exists it should not
last a very long time.
I precise to Giovanni That in the form that you must sign for Navigo
they explain precisely how the travel statistics are made "in order to
improve the network".

didier Meurgues

From: didier Meurgues on

didier Meurgues a écrit :
> Mxsmanic a écrit :
> > didier Meurgues writes:
> >
> > > I early choosed
> > > an annual Navigo pass, simply because I consider, despite the original
> > > "recommendation" of the CNIL, but contrary to Privacy international
> > > "AWARD", that l'm not going to die if my travel stats are kept for
> > > only.... 48H...!
> >
> > They'll be kept much longer than that, despite any promises to the contrary.
> > The only way to prevent that is to not give the information to begin with.
>
> Registration is mandatory in London for Oyster travelcard season
> tickets and the online service includes online payment and cash
> reloading, so the knowledge of email, credit card number and
> consequently... name in this case, in addition the discount Oyster
> cards need your name, while the explanations say that "Registered
> Oyster card holders can get a statement of all journey made in the
> last 8 WEEKS", so consequently TFL as well.
>
> That's much longer... than the 48 hours data keeping for Navigo
> travelcard season tickets number (so connected with name).
> You still have the choice to only pay Oyster at the ticket office in
> cash instead that online but it was still possible in Paris too to buy
> normal monthly Carte Orange instead of Navigo between 2001 and 2007
> instead of annual pass. Nevertheless, Oyster didn't get the Privacy
> international award as easily as Navigo did...
> PS : The next step, will be to put on the anonymous Navigo Decouverte,
> the Pay as you go tickets (carnet, Paris visit, etc...) wich are not
> yet available. But since the necessary pass now exists it should not
> last a very long time.
> I precise to Giovanni That in the form that you must sign for Navigo
travelcard season tickets
> they explain precisely how the travel statistics are made "in order to
> improve the network".
>
> didier Meurgues

From: poldy on
In article <1189598134.080555.165730(a)w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
didier Meurgues <erdnisloed(a)voila.fr> wrote:

> Frank F. Matthews a ?crit :
> > didier Meurgues wrote:
> >
> > > On 7 sep, 23:33, "Frank F. Matthews" <frankfmatth...(a)houston.rr.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>So it is basically a contactless version of the Carte Orange?
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > >>https://www.navigo.fr
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Drat. And I had carefully kept my card holder expecting to simply get a
> > new card from the machines.
>
> The new Navigo d?couverte pass is available since September 1 2007 but
> the actual Carte Orange coupon and its card holder will subsist until
> january 1 2008. So still keep it a little more, if necessary.
> PS : The tichet office staff has not yet... received full informations
> about this new pass according to the one next to my office. So they
> could be a bit confused at the beginning... But tell them that the
> RATP website makes a clear distinction between the normal Navigo pass
> for those living and working in Paris and the new one, CONSEQUENTLY
> reserved for the others (tourists).
> didier Meurgues

So are they more expensive than a weekly carte orange?

Do they only start on Monday for the weekly pass?
From: didier Meurgues on
On 16 sep, 00:41, poldy <po...(a)kfu.com> wrote:
> In article <1189598134.080555.165...(a)w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>  didier Meurgues <erdnisl...(a)voila.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Frank F. Matthews a ?crit :
> > > didier Meurgues wrote:
>
> > > > On 7 sep, 23:33, "Frank F. Matthews" <frankfmatth...(a)houston.rr.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >>So it is basically a contactless version of the Carte Orange?
>
> > > > Yes.
>
> > > >>https://www.navigo.fr
>
> > > Drat.  And I had carefully kept my card holder expecting to simply get a
> > > new card from the machines.
>
> > The new Navigo d?couverte pass is available since September 1 2007 but
> > the actual Carte Orange coupon and its card holder will subsist until
> > january 1 2008. So still keep it a little more, if necessary.
> > PS : The tichet office staff has not yet... received full informations
> > about this new pass according to the one next to my office. So they
> > could be a bit confused at the beginning... But tell them that the
> > RATP website makes a clear distinction between the normal Navigo pass
> > for those living and working in Paris and the new one, CONSEQUENTLY
> > reserved for the others (tourists).
> > didier Meurgues
>
> So are they more expensive than a weekly carte orange?

The weekly/monthly season ticket fare of navigo decouverte is the same
and at the same price than the weekly/monthly carte orange.
But since you have to buy the chipcard itself for 5 €, it's
consequeltly more expensive.
Nevertheless, you can use it indefinitly : you just have to reload it
on the automatic machines when you come back to Paris.
If you loose a weekly/monthly navigo decouverte you pay 8 € to have it
renewed. So it's better to... buy a new one ! :+)
Lost annual passes are renewed for free, until the 3rd lost in a year.

This morning I've checked in 2 stations that the navigos decouverte
have now been received and can be delivered at any metro ticket
office.
You can ask it directly to the clerk or buy it with the automatic
machine, which gives then a paper receipt/invoice. Then you show it at
the ticket office and they give you the navigo decouverte card.

> Do they only start on Monday for the weekly pass?- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

Yes.

> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -


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