From: EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) on


Geoff Miller wrote:

> JohnT <johnSPAMNOT31(a)fastmail.fm> writes:
>
> : Yeah, we have a problem, all right. That's how we got to be
> : the most culturally, economically and militarily influential
> : nation in the history of the planet, and why half the rest of
> : the world is all but breaking down the figurative doors in
> : their determination to come here.
>
>
>>Culturally? Give examples.
>
>
> Coca-Cola.
>
> Fast food.
>
> Fashion and clothing styles.
>
> Rock 'n' roll.
>
> Television shows and Hollywood movies, and the cultural values
> they impart in themselves.
>
> MTV in particular deserves standalone mention.

You're kidding, right? It's true we have managed to export
the very worst aspects of our culture, but that's hardly
something to be PROUD of!!!!!
From: Hatunen on
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:58:57 -0700,
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgmsop(a)earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
>Geoff Miller wrote:
>
>> William Black <william.black(a)hotmail.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>
>>>You don't understand.
>>
>>
>>>We don't have a problem.
>>
>>
>>>You do...
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, we have a problem, all right. That's how we got to be
>> the most culturally, economically and militarily influential
>> nation in the history of the planet,
>
>Hmmmm....
>1) We may have improved somewhat since the early twentieth
>century, but to the rest of the world (and to many of our
>own citizens) the U.S. is still a nation of comparative
>cultural barbarians!

Oh, yes. The Europeans displayed their culture in 1914 and again
in 1936 (Spanish civil war, a most cultural affair), and 1935
(Italy invades Ethiopia, apparently to help the Ethipians learn
to appreciate opera), and let's not neglect all the European
support for Hitler's anti-semitism, shall we?.

Who else? The pre-war Japanese?

>2) If by "economically" influential, you mean outsourcing
>jobs to third world countries and exporting such home grown
>products as McDonald's and Starbucks, you may be right, but
>it's certainly nothing to BRAG about!
>
>3) I think Nazi Germany still holds the record there - and
>if we ccontinue in the vein the present administration has
>started, we may well end up the same way, too. (Even many
>of our own citizens regard Bush, Cheney, et al, as war
>criminals!)

So far, neither approaches the likes of Hitler and Tojo. Or even
Mussolini. Or Franco.


--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen(a)cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
From: Andy Pandy on

"Geoff Miller" <geoffm(a)lava.net> wrote in message
news:13gtafrresf7g1f(a)corp.supernews.com...
> : Yeah, we have a problem, all right. That's how we got to be
> : the most culturally, economically and militarily influential
> : nation in the history of the planet, and why half the rest of
> : the world is all but breaking down the figurative doors in
> : their determination to come here.
>
> > Culturally? Give examples.
>
> Coca-Cola.
>
> Fast food.
>
> Fashion and clothing styles.
>
> Rock 'n' roll.
>
> Television shows and Hollywood movies, and the cultural values
> they impart in themselves.
>
> MTV in particular deserves standalone mention.
>
> Industrialism -- especially mass production. (Which is how we
> got the Knotsies off your backs, incidentally. Ever heard the
> expression "the arsenal of democracy?" I get hard just thinking
> about it.)
>
> Consumerism -- the acquisition of an increasing variety of goods
> and services, leading to a higher quality of life.
>
> In short, all those things that Euroweenies complain about as
> "cultural imperialism." Indeed, if it weren't for American
> cultural influence, the term "cultural imperialism" wouldn't
> even exist. You may not *like* some, or even all, of these
> things. But that isn't the point. You've got a long row to
> hoe if you're going to insist that they've had no influence
> on the rest of the world.

Of course, but it would be incredible if the US, as the country with
by far the largest population in the "developed" world, *didn't* have
such an influence on the rest of the world.

However on my trips to the US I've been surprised at the influence UK
culture has had on the US. Even the Spice Girls FFS (well that's
revenge!).

--
Andy


From: Dave Smith on
Hatunen wrote:

> Oh, yes. The Europeans displayed their culture in 1914 and again
> in 1936 (Spanish civil war, a most cultural affair), and 1935
> (Italy invades Ethiopia, apparently to help the Ethipians learn
> to appreciate opera), and let's not neglect all the European
> support for Hitler's anti-semitism, shall we?.


Perhaps they took a lesson from the US. Americans have invaded Canada
several times. Americans moved into the Mexican state of Texas and then led
a fight for independence. The US tried to buy the Mexican territory that is
now the south western states and when the Mexicans refused to sell, the US
provoked a war with them and as part of the treaty to end the war, bought
that territory for what they had been offering. While there was
anti-Semitism across all of Europe for centuries, the US treatment of its
black citizens and the natives hardly puts it on the moral high ground. And
lets not forget that little conflict between the north and the south.
From: Geoff Miller on


EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) <evgmsop(a)earthlink.net> writes:

> Hmmmm....
> 1) We may have improved somewhat since the early twentieth
> century, but to the rest of the world (and to many of our
> own citizens) the U.S. is still a nation of comparative
> cultural barbarians!

That's just your way of keeping your dignity and self-esteem
intact, having been surpassed in every way by that young,
upstart nation across the pond. It's just human nature that
one's own geopolitical irrelevance is difficult to accept.


> 2) If by "economically" influential, you mean outsourcing
> jobs to third world countries and exporting such home grown
> products as McDonald's and Starbucks, you may be right, but
> it's certainly nothing to BRAG about!

See my earlier post for examples of how American cultural
influence extends well beyond McDonald's and Starbucks.
As I pointed out to a previous poster, whether or not you
like any of the examples I provided, or think they're high-
or lowbrow, isn't the point. The mere fact of their presence
is the point.


> 3) I think Nazi Germany still holds the record there - and
> if we ccontinue in the vein the present administration has
> started, we may well end up the same way, too. (Even many
> of our own citizens regard Bush, Cheney, et al, as war
> criminals!)

Many of your own citizens are wrong. Your derision rings
particularly hollow, coming as it does from people who lacked
the moral backbone to put a stop to the genocide that was
taking place in your own backyard just a few years ago. It
took American leadership to get you moving on that.

Europeans have an irrational-unto-delusional image of America
(and Israel, for that matter) as the root of all evil in the
world. This is a moral inversion, and you ought to be ashamed
of yourselves for it.


: and why half the rest of the world is all but breaking down
: the figurative doors in their determination to come here.

> Few from truly civilized countries - just from those where
> the labor situation is even grimmer than ours is fast becoming!

"Truly civilized countries?" If an American were to say something
like that in an international forum, he'd be pilloried for racism.

Even if that were true, is emigrating out of a desire for a materially
better life for oneself and one's family somehow less noble than emi-
grating for any other reason? For that matter, economic opportunity
is the very reason most people come here -- even those from countries
you'd consider "civilized."

At least we're not at the point of committing cultural suicide by
falling all over ourselves to accomodate a culturally hostile
minority like many European contries are. That's really a Faustian
bargain you folks have going with the Islamic world.



Geoff

--
"Since the whole affair had become one of religion, the
vanquished were of course exterminated. -- Voltaire