Paris metro Navigo "decouverte" pass now available for tourists
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From: didier Meurgues on 12 Sep 2007 09:52 didier Meurgues a écrit : > Giovanni Drogo a écrit : > > On Sat, 8 Sep 2007, Mxsmanic wrote: > > > > > didier Meurgues writes: > > > > > > > Cette opération n'est pas possible pour le passe Navigo Découverte car > > > > vous n'êtes pas inscrit dans une base de données, les caractéristiques > > > > de son contrat ne pouvant pas être enregistrées. > > > > > > Which means that the privacy of tourists is better protected than that of > > > residents. > > > > I would be interested in knowing more about this, both for the case of > > the Paris Navigo pass (maybe from Didier), than for other places (I > > realize that there are two kind of Oyster cards in London for instance, > > personal and impersonal). > > > > I add my own comments about the situation in Milan. Here the card (costs > > 10 euro for 4 years, supports loading yearly, monthly or weekly urban > > passes) is personal, and originally required a photo to be issued. I > > have been told (not tested yet) that for renewal (the first cards > > preserved the original expiry date of the older paper cards) one does > > not need to show a photo (the old one is in the database), and anyhow > > they do not withdraw the photo any more, just scan it. > > > > The question of data protection has been raised to the Autorita' Garante > > per la Protezione dei Dati personali (Privacy Authority), which has > > issued a disposition which forces ATM (in Milan, a similar one was > > issued concerning ATAC in Rome) to transform the data in anonymous form > > after 72 hours. 72 hours were allowed (on request of ATM and ATAC) to > > allow checks of invalid or stolen cards against a blacklist. The > > authority requested ATM to put this in force within 31/12/2006. > > > > I have no information (I enquired but got only generic replies) whether > > this was actually made or not. > > > http://www.cnil.fr/index.php?id=12 > This link works perhaps better : http://www.cnil.fr/index.php?id=1014 > The travel datas are kept 48 H on the nominatiive normal Navigo pass > (for fraud fighting). The others deconnected datas (name, adress, bank > account and type of pass (zone)) are kept exclusively for renewing or > lost of the pass. This is common in france (Electricity contracts, > etc...) where people prefer direct patyments/withdrawal on bank > accounts without papers, and since long authorised and controlled by > the CNIL. The Navigo Découverte pass is anonymous concerning datas > keeping. Photo and name are used for both pass for the control on the > spot. On the nominative normal navigo pass the photo is scaned. For > the decouverte pass they say that you give an ID photo. > The CNIL exists since 1978, and every year we learn in the media its > action against illegal nominative listings. The award given by Privacy > International to Nacvigo is IMO one more usual and common "french > bashing"... > http://www.cnil.fr/index.php?id=16 with the link to the 1978 law. > > Below the article about the VALIDATION (so prior control) by the CNIL > of Navigo Découverte : > > Le passe « découverte » : un passe navigo enfin anonyme ! > 05/08/2007 - En bref > Aller et venir librement, anonymement, est lâune des libertés > fondamentales dans nos démocraties. > Câest pourquoi, dans son avis du 8 avril 2004 relative à > lâexploitation des données de validation des passes navigo par la > RATP, la CNIL avait estimé quâil convenait de laisser aux usagers la > possibilité dâutiliser un service de transport public de manière > anonyme, sans quâil en résulte un surcoût par rapport au choix dâun > passe nominatif. En effet, dans le passe navigo actuel, les données de > validation (dates, heure et lieu de passage) sont associées aux > numéros dâabonné durant 48 heures uniquement à des fins de lutte > contre la fraude. > Réintérogés par la CNIL sur le sujet, le Syndicat des Transports dâIle- > de-France (STIF) a indiqué quâoutre le passe navigo actuel, une > nouvelle forme de passe navigo, pour lequel les données de validation > ne seront pas associées à un numéro dâabonné (ce qui le rend anonyme), > sera mis en vente dès le 1er septembre 2007. > Ce nouveau passe se compose dâune carte à puce anonyme et dâune carte > nominative de transport qui, pour les besoins des contrôles par les > sociétés de transport, comportera au recto les données personnelles > suivantes : > ï· une photographie (collée par lâusager) > ï· les nom et prénom de lâusager (via une inscription manuscrite). > La carte nominative de transport et la carte à puce devront être > présentées ensemble lors dâéventuels contrôles. > En cas de perte, de vol, de détérioration ou dâerreur technique, le > remplacement du passe sâeffectuera moyennant finance à charge pour > lâabonné de fournir une nouvelle photographie et de réinscrire ses nom > et prénom au recto du nouveau passe. > Les données de validation inscrites sur la puce nâétant pas associées > à un numéro dâabonné ou à un nom de client, elle ne seront conservées > quâà des fins purement statistiques. > Le STIF a fait savoir que ce nouveau passe, appelé « navigo découverte > », sera disponible pour tous les utilisateurs de lâabonnement carte > orange mensuel ou hebdomadaire, dans les stations RATP et les gares > SNCF et quâil fera lâobjet dâune campagne dâinformations dès la > rentrée. > Bien que la Commission regrette la mise en service tardive et payante > de ce passe navigo « anonyme », elle ne peut que se réjouir de voir > ses recommandations appliquées. > Pour tous ceux qui souhaitent encore se déplacer « anonymement » : > ticket à lâunité ou passe découverte, à vous de choisir⦠> > > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to > > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. > > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
From: Giovanni Drogo on 12 Sep 2007 10:23 On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, didier Meurgues wrote: > Giovanni Drogo a �crit : > > I would be interested in knowing more about this, both for the case of > > the Paris Navigo pass (maybe from Didier), than for other places (I > > I add my own comments about the situation in Milan. Here the card (costs I might also add that no "french bashing" was at all implied in my post, on the contrary I was assuming things about privacy were done better abroad than in Italy. Since "The CNIL exists since 1978" while the Autorita' Garante per la Protezione dei Dati Personali since 1997 only . I'd expect that RATP were a priori more attentive than ATM on privacy matters. And in fact it looks like that ... > The travel datas are kept 48 H on the nominatiive normal Navigo pass You say that data are kept ON THE CHIP. I won't object on that since the chip card is normally in my pockets. If I'd designed the software for ATM, I'd made it such that on entry in the metro it records the station and hour, and on exit it reads it (without the card id) and communicates to the central database "whoever entered at station X at time T exited at station Y at time U". Apparently instead ATM designed the system so that the fact that "card number N entered at station X at time T" is transmitted to the central database at entry (perhaps also on exit, but use of the card on exit is not yet compulsory). Originally it was kept forever. Now, if they abide the disposition of the Privacy Authority, they anonymize it after 72 hours. > (for fraud fighting). The others deconnected datas (name, adress, bank > account and type of pass (zone)) are kept exclusively for renewing or > lost of the pass. This is common in france (Electricity contracts, Yes, also in Italy we sign a consensus form for such data. I signed it also for the paper card precursor of the Itinero pass, but the form makes no reference to transit data, or to their "deconnection". > the CNIL. The Navigo D�couverte pass is anonymous concerning datas > keeping. Photo and name are used for both pass for the control on the > spot. On the nominative normal navigo pass the photo is scaned. For > the decouverte pass they say that you give an ID photo. OK, so I understand the new pass is "anonymous" but not "impersonal". Essentially one gains the anonymity losing, I suppose, the possibility to obtain a new pass for free (do I understand correctly) in case of loss or theft. I do not like this trade off (since I pay 300 euro in a lot for an yearly pass, if I lose it on january 2nd I like the idea of not having to pay 300 euro again more than I regret the breach of my privacy). Anyhow in case of loss or theft, ATM wants anyhow 15 euro (versus 10 for issue) for the new card (on which it loads the residual duration). Since your anonymous pass has a photo, it is not impersonal (it cannot be used by different persons at different times). Does an impersonal season card exist anywhere in major cities ? (I know only of smaller places like Bologna issuing one). In Milan there were forms of impersonal transport documents, in the form of the weekly 2x6 (two rides per day), and the 10-trip carnet. They were both booklets of paper tickets. The 2x6 could be used by different persons, but not simultaneously (for instance I could use it on Monday and my brother on Tuesday). The carnet could be used also simultaneously (for instance a family of 3 stamping 3 tickets in the booklet). Now they replaced both with magnetic tickets (DIFFERENT from the chip card). The 2x6 usage remains the same, but the equivalent of the carnet is a single ticket, were each of the 10 usages is recorded on the magnetic strip, and at the same time stamped on the back of the ticket in slightly offset locations. But since the machine won't add a stamp if the previous stamping is still active (lasting for a trip of 75 min), it is not possible to use it by more persons travelling together. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
From: Mxsmanic on 12 Sep 2007 12:59 didier Meurgues writes: > I early choosed > an annual Navigo pass, simply because I consider, despite the original > "recommendation" of the CNIL, but contrary to Privacy international > "AWARD", that l'm not going to die if my travel stats are kept for > only.... 48H...! They'll be kept much longer than that, despite any promises to the contrary. The only way to prevent that is to not give the information to begin with.
From: didier Meurgues on 12 Sep 2007 14:14 On 12 sep, 16:23, Giovanni Drogo <dr...(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, didier Meurgues wrote: > > Giovanni Drogo a écrit : > > > I would be interested in knowing more about this, both for the case of > > > the Paris Navigo pass (maybe from Didier), than for other places (I > > > I add my own comments about the situation in Milan. Here the card (costs > > I might also add that no "french bashing" was at all implied in my post, > on the contrary I was assuming things about privacy were done better > abroad than in Italy. > > Since "The CNIL exists since 1978" while the Autorita' Garante per la > Protezione dei Dati Personali since 1997 only . I'd expect that RATP > were a priori more attentive than ATM on privacy matters. > > And in fact it looks like that ... > > > The travel datas are kept 48 H on the nominatiive normal Navigo pass > > You say that data are kept ON THE CHIP. I won't object on that since the > chip card is normally in my pockets. If I'd designed the software for > ATM, I'd made it such that on entry in the metro it records the station > and hour, and on exit it reads it (without the card id) and communicates > to the central database "whoever entered at station X at time T exited > at station Y at time U". Apparently instead ATM designed the system so > that the fact that "card number N entered at station X at time T" is > transmitted to the central database at entry (perhaps also on exit, but > use of the card on exit is not yet compulsory). Originally it was kept > forever. Now, if they abide the disposition of the Privacy Authority, > they anonymize it after 72 hours. Well, I should have said "are kept 48H WITH the normal navigo pass". They say that the validation datas (so coming from the turnstiles) are associated during 48 H with the number of the card (so the name). It works in fact as you described. > > (for fraud fighting). The others deconnected datas (name, adress, bank > > account and type of pass (zone) AND I HAD CARD NUMBER) are kept exclusively for renewing or > > lost of the pass. This is common in france (Electricity contracts, > > Yes, also in Italy we sign a consensus form for such data. I signed it > also for the paper card precursor of the Itinero pass, but the form > makes no reference to transit data, or to their "deconnection". > > > the CNIL. The Navigo Découverte pass is anonymous concerning datas > > keeping. Photo and name are used for both pass for the control on the > > spot. On the nominative normal navigo pass the photo is scaned. For > > the decouverte pass they say that you give an ID photo. > > OK, so I understand the new pass is "anonymous" but not "impersonal". Yes, you buy the Navigo Decouverte anonimously, but apparently later (like with the actual Carte Orange) you put yourself your photo and name on it. So you're not in the datas but the controler can check on the spot that it's really your card, since it cannot be used by different persons at different times. > Essentially one gains the anonymity losing, I suppose, the possibility > to obtain a new pass for free (do I understand correctly) in case of > loss or theft. No, unfortunately they renew it for the cost of the pass (5 â¬) + a charge of 3 â¬, so 8 â¬. But you just have to present an ID to got it immediately renewed in the Club Ratp commercial agencies listed there : https://www.navigo.fr/pages/images/liste_des_agences.pdf PS : It's better to buy your Navigo decouverte pass in these agencies until january 1, since some ticket office staff don't know that they can already deliver it exactely like a Carte Orange at any ticket office. Let's wait January 1 for their definitive info I hope.... Contrary to what Mixi says, it's the job of the CNIL to check that the "validation" datas are only kept 48 H and to bring the RATP to courts in case of breach of the law (as they did recently with companies and real estate agencies which made lists based on race, etc...). didier Meurgues I do not like this trade off (since I pay 300 euro in a > lot for an yearly pass, if I lose it on january 2nd I like the idea of > not having to pay 300 euro again more than I regret the breach of my > privacy). Anyhow in case of loss or theft, ATM wants anyhow 15 euro > (versus 10 for issue) for the new card (on which it loads the residual > duration). > > Since your anonymous pass has a photo, it is not impersonal (it cannot > be used by different persons at different times). > > Does an impersonal season card exist anywhere in major cities ? (I know > only of smaller places like Bologna issuing one). > > In Milan there were forms of impersonal transport documents, in the > form of the weekly 2x6 (two rides per day), and the 10-trip carnet. They > were both booklets of paper tickets. The 2x6 could be used by different > persons, but not simultaneously (for instance I could use it on Monday > and my brother on Tuesday). The carnet could be used also simultaneously > (for instance a family of 3 stamping 3 tickets in the booklet). > > Now they replaced both with magnetic tickets (DIFFERENT from the chip > card). The 2x6 usage remains the same, but the equivalent of the carnet > is a single ticket, were each of the 10 usages is recorded on the > magnetic strip, and at the same time stamped on the back of the ticket > in slightly offset locations. But since the machine won't add a stamp if > the previous stamping is still active (lasting for a trip of 75 min), it > is not possible to use it by more persons travelling together. > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > nos...(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
From: didier Meurgues on 12 Sep 2007 14:24
On 12 sep, 20:14, didier Meurgues <erdnisl...(a)voila.fr> wrote: > On 12 sep, 16:23, Giovanni Drogo <dr...(a)rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, didier Meurgues wrote: > > > Giovanni Drogo a écrit : > > > > I would be interested in knowing more about this, both for the case of > > > > the Paris Navigo pass (maybe from Didier), than for other places (I > > > > I add my own comments about the situation in Milan. Here the card (costs > > > I might also add that no "french bashing" was at all implied in my post, > > on the contrary I was assuming things about privacy were done better > > abroad than in Italy. > > > Since "The CNIL exists since 1978" while the Autorita' Garante per la > > Protezione dei Dati Personali since 1997 only . I'd expect that RATP > > were a priori more attentive than ATM on privacy matters. > > > And in fact it looks like that ... > > > > The travel datas are kept 48 H on the nominatiive normal Navigo pass > > > You say that data are kept ON THE CHIP. I won't object on that since the > > chip card is normally in my pockets. If I'd designed the software for > > ATM, I'd made it such that on entry in the metro it records the station > > and hour, and on exit it reads it (without the card id) and communicates > > to the central database "whoever entered at station X at time T exited > > at station Y at time U". Apparently instead ATM designed the system so > > that the fact that "card number N entered at station X at time T" is > > transmitted to the central database at entry (perhaps also on exit, but > > use of the card on exit is not yet compulsory). Originally it was kept > > forever. Now, if they abide the disposition of the Privacy Authority, > > they anonymize it after 72 hours. > > Well, I should have said "are kept 48H WITH the normal navigo pass". > They say that the validation datas (so coming from the turnstiles) are > associated during 48 H with the number of the card (so the name). It > works in fact as you described. > > > > (for fraud fighting). The others deconnected datas (name, adress, bank > > > account and type of pass (zone) AND I HAD CARD NUMBER) are kept exclusively for renewing or > > > lost of the pass. This is common in france (Electricity contracts, > > > Yes, also in Italy we sign a consensus form for such data. I signed it > > also for the paper card precursor of the Itinero pass, but the form > > makes no reference to transit data, or to their "deconnection". > > > > the CNIL. The Navigo Découverte pass is anonymous concerning datas > > > keeping. Photo and name are used for both pass for the control on the > > > spot. On the nominative normal navigo pass the photo is scaned. For > > > the decouverte pass they say that you give an ID photo. > > > OK, so I understand the new pass is "anonymous" but not "impersonal". > > Yes, you buy the Navigo Decouverte anonimously, but apparently later > (like with the actual Carte Orange) you put yourself your photo and > name on it. So you're not in the datas but the controler can check on > the spot that it's really your card, since it cannot be used by > different persons at different times. Well, in fact they can make travel datas as well with the Navigo decouverte number, but they don't know to whom the pass belongs. > > Essentially one gains the anonymity losing, I suppose, the possibility > > to obtain a new pass for free (do I understand correctly) in case of > > loss or theft. > > No, unfortunately they renew it for the cost of the pass (5 â¬) + a > charge of 3 â¬, so 8 â¬. But you just have to present an ID to got it > immediately renewed in the Club Ratp commercial agencies listed > there :https://www.navigo.fr/pages/images/liste_des_agences.pdf > PS : It's better to buy your Navigo decouverte pass in these agencies > until january 1, since some ticket office staff don't know that they > can already deliver it exactely like a Carte Orange at any ticket > office. Let's wait January 1 for their definitive info I hope.... > > Contrary to what Mixi says, it's the job of the CNIL to check that the > "validation" datas are only kept 48 H and to bring the RATP to courts > in case of breach of the law (as they did recently with companies and > real estate agencies which made lists based on race, etc...). > > didier Meurgues > > I do not like this trade off (since I pay 300 euro in a > > > > > lot for an yearly pass, if I lose it on january 2nd I like the idea of > > not having to pay 300 euro again more than I regret the breach of my > > privacy). Anyhow in case of loss or theft, ATM wants anyhow 15 euro > > (versus 10 for issue) for the new card (on which it loads the residual > > duration). > > > Since your anonymous pass has a photo, it is not impersonal (it cannot > > be used by different persons at different times). > > > Does an impersonal season card exist anywhere in major cities ? (I know > > only of smaller places like Bologna issuing one). > > > In Milan there were forms of impersonal transport documents, in the > > form of the weekly 2x6 (two rides per day), and the 10-trip carnet. They > > were both booklets of paper tickets. The 2x6 could be used by different > > persons, but not simultaneously (for instance I could use it on Monday > > and my brother on Tuesday). The carnet could be used also simultaneously > > (for instance a family of 3 stamping 3 tickets in the booklet). > > > Now they replaced both with magnetic tickets (DIFFERENT from the chip > > card). The 2x6 usage remains the same, but the equivalent of the carnet > > is a single ticket, were each of the 10 usages is recorded on the > > magnetic strip, and at the same time stamped on the back of the ticket > > in slightly offset locations. But since the machine won't add a stamp if > > the previous stamping is still active (lasting for a trip of 75 min), it > > is not possible to use it by more persons travelling together. > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > nos...(a)mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to > > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. > > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.- Masquer le texte des messages précédents - > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -- Masquer le texte des messages précédents - > > - Afficher le texte des messages précédents - |