Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport
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From: James A. Donald on 14 Dec 2006 16:07 "James A. Donald" > > And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as > > inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the > > menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a > > manger at the airport, "Sancho Panza" > That is severely uninformed. A menorah has absolutely > no religious meaning whatsoever, and there is no way > that you can show that it does. Googling for menorah, the first hit tells me: : : One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith : : is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum : : used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the : : menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and : : cleaned it out every morning, replacing the : : wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the : : cups. The illustration at left is based on : : instructions for construction of the menorah : : found in Exodus 25:31-40. : : : : It has been said that the menorah is a symbol : : of the nation of Israel and our mission to be : : "a light unto the nations." It is also a nationalist symbol. Nationalism is confrontational and excursionist. Christmas trees are not. If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for a menorah to balance it, and could *still* reasonably be rejected on the grounds that if we put up a menorah, we would soon have to put up two hundred and seventeen national flags. Judaism really does not quite fit into the American model of separation of church and state, because America is a nation state, and judaism is both religion and nationalism. Islam, of course, violently contradicts the American model of separation of church and state, since separation of church and state is a violation of Islam. In consequence, the policy of treating Judaism and Islam as if they were Christian religious sects does not really work, and this unpleasant confrontation over a christmas display that had been carefully purged of the slightest religious element is an indication of that. You will notice we do not have this problem with animists, ancestor worshippers, and Hindus. Those fit into the American model of separation of Church and State just fine. Jews and Muslims just do not, and nothing can be done. The problem is not that America is Christian, for animists do not have this problem. America is, as George Washington said "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" The problem is that America is American and some Jews and Muslims just will not accept that. Experience has proven that no concession will be sufficient to make them accept that. The original deal proposed by the supreme court was that you could have a manger and religious carols, provided they were a minor element among reindeer and christmas trees. That settlement was agreed to, and then Kwanzaad and Hannukked to death. Like the Palestinians, they agreed, then they did not agree. So the mangers were out, despite the supreme court saying they were in. Now we are seeing a rerun of the same game on the trees. -- ---------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
From: markzoom on 14 Dec 2006 16:18 Arturo Magidin wrote: > In article <1166124589.018088.181400(a)16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, > <markzoom(a)digiverse.net> wrote: > > > >Arturo Magidin wrote: > > >> >So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current > >> >and recognised religions, either then? > >> > >> The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions; > >> the fold goes the other way. > > > >Who said anything about the nazi swastika? > > Fair enough. As I understand it, "swastika" refers to the nazi > symbol; the hindu symbol is called "shubthika" (good symbol). Semantics. Do you think an 8' swastika-like symbol should be displayed at a US airport on hindu/budhist festivals ? Or a crescent moon and star on muslim ones (just as many muslims as jews in the US!)? > > > >> >Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli > >> >government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory. > >> > >> The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the > >> national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5 > >> pointed star. > >> > >> The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched > >> candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched > >> candelabrum. > > > >A minor detail. > > Hardly a minor detail. Just like only the official emblem of the > american government must be a bald eagle, not just any kind of eagle, They vary greatly too, "A" bald eagle is used, not the same "one". > so the national emblem of Israel must be a seven branched > candelabrum; a Hanukyah ->must<- be a nine branched candelabrum. Quite > simply, they are not the same thing. Just like the wiccan star and the > Star of David are not the same thing. It's a *jewish, menorah* candelabre. > > If you want to object to a Hanukyah display on some other grounds, go > ahead; we Who's "we"? > can deal with those. ??? What do you want to make a deal about? > But claiming that it is "the official > emblem of the israeli government" is, quite simply, false. A menorah candelabre IS the official Israeli state emblem, are you saying it isn't? Do you know any other countries who use a religious symbol used in festivals as the national emblem? > > -- > ====================================================================== > "It's not denial. I'm just very selective about > what I accept as reality." > --- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson) > ====================================================================== > > Arturo Magidin > magidin-at-member-ams-org
From: markzoom on 14 Dec 2006 16:36 Arturo Magidin wrote: > In article <1166124904.436392.294780(a)f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > <markzoom(a)digiverse.net> wrote: > > > >Arturo Magidin wrote: > >> markzoom(a)digiverse.net wrote: > >> > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > >> > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote: > >> > > > >> > > >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and > >> > > > denouncing anti-Semitism. > >> > > > >> > > By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display? > >> > > >> > It's not just some kind of festive decoration. > >> > The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the > >> > eagle is to the US!: > >> > > >> > http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp > >> > >> You are confused. > >> > >> The Menorah, the symbol that appears in the official seal of the state > >> of Israel, is a seven-arm candelabra; the Hanukiyah, the "Hanuka > >> menorah" has a different number of arms. They are different emblems, > >> just like the Star of David is different from the Wiccan five-pointed > >> star. > > > >A minor detail, just like people will first think "nazi" when they see > >a swastika, no matter which way round it is. > > If that is your "argument" with regards to this, then you have just > shot yourself in the foot. Not at all. > > The vast majority of americans identify the candelabrum (7- or > 9-branched) with Hanukah, not with the state of Israel. They call both > "menorah" (the former correclty, the latter incorrectly), and usually > misidentify a 7 branched candelabrum as a Hanukyah and think > "Hanukah". Few are aware of the difference, and the overwhelming > association is that of the holiday, not the political association > (exactly the opposite of the shubhtika, where most people will > misidentify it as political rather than religious). In any case, you > claimed that the 9-branch candelabrum ->is<- the "national emblem of > the "State" of Israel". And that is, quite simply, false. Explain it > away all you want now, you were still wrong. Liar. I never specified the amount of bloody candles of any menorah, so I am not wrong about any number. It's a menorah wether it's got seven or nine candles. A menorah is both the Israeli state symbol and the festive one, and I can think of quite a few people who would find it offensive, particularly at an international airport. > > -- > ====================================================================== > "It's not denial. I'm just very selective about > what I accept as reality." > --- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson) > ====================================================================== > > Arturo Magidin > magidin-at-member-ams-org
From: flaviaR on 14 Dec 2006 17:16 On 14-Dec-2006, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote: > > > > > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote: > >> > >> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor. > >> > > >> > > >> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel > >> > and > >> > denouncing anti-Semitism. > >> > >> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display? > > > > It's not just some kind of festive decoration. > > The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL NO, IT IS NOT. The chanukiah "menorah" used at Chanukah has eight branches and one in the middle; the Israeli Menorah has six and one in the middle. It is distinctly different and for a reason that bigots like markzoom will never grasp - and on purpose. > > Like the > > eagle is to the US!: > > > > http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp > > > > I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state > > emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. Which is, of course, why no one is suggesting it. > > But hey, maybe > > yanks should know who their real masters are. > > That's stupid. Yes, he is. > Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel. > Here, many regard it as a religious symbol. If we're going to let one > religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we > should let all of them be displayed. Exactly. Susan
From: flaviaR on 14 Dec 2006 17:18
On 14-Dec-2006, constantinopoli(a)gmail.com wrote: > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote: > > > > >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor. > > > > > > > > > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel > > > and > > > denouncing anti-Semitism. > > > > By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display? > > If there's a choice between displaying all religions and displaying > none - and that was ultimately the choice - then the better option is > to display none. Which is fine, just so long as you don;t BLAME the people who only asked for equal time. > > Christmas trees are nonreligious Except for their NAME, and that they only come out AT XMAS. Susan |