Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport
in [Airline Travel]
|
Prev: AF IAH - CDG
Next: BA overbooking - a bad experience
From: Sancho Panza on 14 Dec 2006 18:08 "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> wrote in message news:54d3o29mhnodsngvaegla0jv1lsvnk3h49(a)4ax.com... > "James A. Donald" > > > And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as > > > inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the > > > menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a > > > manger at the airport, > > "Sancho Panza" > > That is severely uninformed. A menorah has absolutely > > no religious meaning whatsoever, and there is no way > > that you can show that it does. > > Googling for menorah, the first hit tells me: > : : One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith > : : is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum > : : used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the > : : menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and > : : cleaned it out every morning, replacing the > : : wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the > : : cups. The illustration at left is based on > : : instructions for construction of the menorah > : : found in Exodus 25:31-40. > : : > : : It has been said that the menorah is a symbol > : : of the nation of Israel and our mission to be > : : "a light unto the nations." > > It is also a nationalist symbol. Nationalism is > confrontational and excursionist. Christmas trees are > not. > > If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix > instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for a > menorah to balance it, and could *still* reasonably be > rejected on the grounds that if we put up a menorah, we > would soon have to put up two hundred and seventeen > national flags. If someone insists on flaunting their ignorance so be it. But as has been posted here quite a few times already, the Hanukah candelabrum is different from the Israeli candelabra. Of course, stubborness and prejudice may delay this simple understanding. > Judaism really does not quite fit into the American > model of separation of church and state, because America > is a nation state, and judaism is both religion and > nationalism. Islam, of course, violently contradicts > the American model of separation of church and state, > since separation of church and state is a violation of > Islam. You no doubt would feel more comfortable with tax-supported Christian schools and similar programs. >In consequence, the policy of treating Judaism > and Islam as if they were Christian religious sects does > not really work, and this unpleasant confrontation over > a christmas display that had been carefully purged of > the slightest religious element is an indication of > that. If someone insists on falling over one's arguments, including theological abstractions, in wide-ranging public forums, so be it again. It will be curious to see whether anyone can make sense of the above statement. > You will notice we do not have this problem with > animists, ancestor worshippers, and Hindus. Those fit > into the American model of separation of Church and > State just fine. Jews and Muslims just do not, and > nothing can be done. The problem is not that America is > Christian, for animists do not have this problem. > America is, as George Washington said "not, in any > sense, founded on the Christian religion" The problem > is that America is American and some Jews and Muslims > just will not accept that. Experience has proven that > no concession will be sufficient to make them accept > that. > > The original deal proposed by the supreme court was that > you could have a manger and religious carols, provided > they were a minor element among reindeer and christmas > trees. Which case was that, again? > That settlement was agreed to, and then Kwanzaad and > Hannukked to death. Like the Palestinians, they agreed, > then they did not agree. > > So the mangers were out, despite the supreme court > saying they were in.
From: Arturo Magidin on 14 Dec 2006 18:26 markzoom(a)digiverse.net wrote: > Arturo Magidin wrote: > > In article <1166124589.018088.181400(a)16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, > > <markzoom(a)digiverse.net> wrote: > > > > > >Arturo Magidin wrote: > > > > >> >So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current > > >> >and recognised religions, either then? > > >> > > >> The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions; > > >> the fold goes the other way. > > > > > >Who said anything about the nazi swastika? > > > > Fair enough. As I understand it, "swastika" refers to the nazi > > symbol; the hindu symbol is called "shubthika" (good symbol). > > Semantics. One man's "semantics" is another man's "accuracy", "truth", and "precision." > Do you think an 8' swastika-like symbol should be displayed > at a US airport on hindu/budhist festivals ? I think that IF the airport wants to open its spaces for ONE religion to display its symbols, no matter how secularized, then it should open its spaces for ALL religions. So if the airport is willing to offer space for a christmas display, then it should open its spaces for a Hanukahh display, and for Hindu displays. If such displays include shubhtikas, well, so what? > Or a crescent moon and > star on muslim ones (just as many muslims as jews in the US!)? Setting aside that muslim holidays don't usually go for displays, again: IF the airport offers its public spaces for one, then it should offer them for ALL on an equal basis. That does include muslims and their crescent moons, jews and their hanukyahs, hindus and their shubhtikas, wiccans and their five-pointed stars, etc. IF they want to prevent certain denominations from having access to the space, then they ought to prevent ALL denominations from having access to the space. > > > > > > > >> >Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli > > >> >government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory. > > >> > > >> The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the > > >> national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5 > > >> pointed star. > > >> > > >> The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched > > >> candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched > > >> candelabrum. > > > > > >A minor detail. > > > > Hardly a minor detail. Just like only the official emblem of the > > american government must be a bald eagle, not just any kind of eagle, > > They vary greatly too, "A" bald eagle is used, not the same "one". And unless they are placed as in the seal, they are not usually considered to be "the official emblem of the american government." Yet you are arguing that something which is NOT the same as the one in the israeli national emblem should be considered the same. So, is the two-headed teutonic eagle the "emblem of the United States"? > > > so the national emblem of Israel must be a seven branched > > candelabrum; a Hanukyah ->must<- be a nine branched candelabrum. Quite > > simply, they are not the same thing. Just like the wiccan star and the > > Star of David are not the same thing. > > It's a *jewish, menorah* candelabre. And "jewish" is not the same as "israeli". And in the US, the vast majority of people associate it with the Hanukah festival, not with the state of Israel. You object to placing a hanukyah on the grounds that it is the emblem of the Israeli government. That objection is quite simply without basis: it is NOT the emblem of the state of Israel, just like the 2 headed eagle is not the emblem of the United States, and just as the bald eagle in the Post Officee emblem is not "the emblem of the United States". > > > > > If you want to object to a Hanukyah display on some other grounds, go > > ahead; we > > Who's "we"? That would be you and me, in a discussion about such putative objections. It's called a dialogue, and it's called "inclusive language". You might want to look it up. > > > can deal with those. > > ??? What do you want to make a deal about? Who said anything about "making a deal"? I talked about "dealing with" any putative objections you might have to a Hanukyah display that are not based on the false assertion that it is the "emblem of Israel". Perhaps if you took a few minutes to breathe and stop foaming at the mouth, you might be able to perform some simple reading comprehension? > > > But claiming that it is "the official > > emblem of the israeli government" is, quite simply, false. > > A menorah candelabre IS the official Israeli state emblem, are you > saying it isn't? Are you really that thick, or just pretending? A menorah is, by definiion, a SEVEN BRANCH candelabrum; the emblem of the State of Israle does in fact include a seven branch candelabrum, i.e., a menorah. A hanukyah, by contrast, is a NINE BRANCH candelabrum; that is what is sometimes refered to as a "Hanukah menorah" (compound noun). The nine branch candelabrum is NOT "the official Israeli state emblem". See: 7 is the same as the number of fingers on one hand, plus the number of eyes you have. By contast, 9 is the number of fingers on one hand, plus the number of eyes, plus the number of noses, plus the number of mouths. Seven is not the same thing as nine. A menorah is not the same thing as a hanukyah. > > Do you know any other countries who use a religious symbol used in > festivals as the national emblem? You mean, other than all those countries that have crosses in their flags and coat of arms? You know, like England, Switzerland, Norway, etc.? Not that it matters. Israel does not use a "religious symbol used in festivals". The religious symbol used in a festival is the 9 branch candelabrum; the symbol in the national emblem is the 7 branch candelabrum. 7 branch candelabra are not used in religious festivals. 9 branch candelabra are not used in the national emblem. I would have thought it was clear. Perhaps you simly do not wish it to be? --- ====================================================================== "It's not denial. I'm just very selective about what I accept as reality." --- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson) ====================================================================== Arturo Magidin magidin-at-member-ams-org
From: brique on 14 Dec 2006 18:26 <constantinopoli(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:1166119034.117505.237550(a)f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > > > I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments > > rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even something > > really absurd like airport security... > > That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a > reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places. > What........ like the Bronx and South LA ?
From: Sancho Panza on 14 Dec 2006 18:13 "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> wrote in message news:g083o29k0sig4dskbku3fck5tq29gtdith(a)4ax.com... > -- > "James A. Donald" > > > any one who not only does not celebrate it, but gets > > > upset and offended by other people celebrating it, > > > is indeed a bigot. > > "Sancho Panza" > > You would no doubt celebrate even more imams and > > others taking out their prayer rugs and doing their > > thing in the middle of a public place that you are > > using. > > There was no manger at the airport, nor any prayer. The > airport Christmas was carefully sanitized of anything > with the slightest connection to Christianity. If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just Christians use them?
From: Sancho Panza on 14 Dec 2006 18:16
<markzoom(a)digiverse.net> wrote in message news:1166121416.742268.210850(a)73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com... > > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote: > > > > > > > > Mark K. Bilbo wrote: > > >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote: > > >> > > >> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and > > >> > denouncing anti-Semitism. > > >> > > >> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display? > > > > > > It's not just some kind of festive decoration. > > > The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the > > > eagle is to the US!: > > > > > > http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp > > > > > > I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state > > > emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe > > > yanks should know who their real masters are. > > > > That's stupid. > > Oh? I bet there would be an army of zionist shysters beating down doors > if a Muslim Iman insisted on an 8' crescent and moon displayed at US > airports on Muslim religious holidays. > > > Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel. > > So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current > and recognised religions, either then? > Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli > government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory. > > > Here, many regard it as a religious symbol. > > In the US, only less than 2% do. Did you know that there are just as > many muslims as jews in the US, btw? > > > If we're going to let one > > religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we > > should let all of them be displayed. > > You'll find that many places won't display anything at all instead of > being forced to incur the expense of purchasing and managing the > displays of dozens of minority religions on their festivals year round. But for the one favored religion, whatever the trouble and expense is more than fine. |